I’ve pretty quiet this week because I’m in the middle of a personal crisis — real life slow-motion car crash rather than over-thinky self-reflexive existential kind I’m used to, although obviously it is that too.
I thought I had problems, and I did have problems. I do! Life, viewed unromantically, is really just a series of problems and our attempts to solve them. But this problem? It’s of a higher order. It puts everything else into perspective. There are problems and then there are crises and this one falls squarely into the latter category. It’s a ferocious moving target that obliterates everything in its path, giving no sense of when it might end or how long it might last.
Someone I love and care for deeply, on whom I depend and who depends upon me, is in the middle of a serious… I guess you’d call it a mental health breakdown? This person went from okay to absolutely not okay seemingly over night. It took me a couple of weeks to even process what was happening because, although we were close, we were also often in disagreement. I was so used to being in conflict with this person that it took me a while (too long I now worry) to grasp that their perception of reality wasn’t just several degrees off mine, but objectively distorted to the point that they needed actual professional help. Now that I’ve identified the issue, the sheer administrative task of getting them said help has proved a kind of insanity in itself.
So this is the topic of today’s open thread: How do you help a mentally unwell person who doesn’t want to be helped?
Surely many of you have found yourself in some version of this quagmire with a relative, friend or loved one, so please, tell me your stories and give me your best advice. I am desperate for any and all of it.
The questions dashing round the hamster wheels of my mind are infinite and unanswerable: How do you convince someone who thinks they’re fine that they are absolutely not fine? How do demonstrate to them they “need help” without the aid of a reality show intervention? How do you convince others to help you help them without sounding like you are blowing the situation out of proportion and undermining the person involved (especially if you have, historically, had a rather fraught relationship with the person in question)? How do you respect an unwell person’s boundaries in a way that isn’t patronising and preserves their dignity and for which they might forgive you down the line when they have (god fucking willing) returned to their usual ornery, stubborn, irritating and gorgeous, irreplaceable self?
Who do you tell? Where do you turn? How do you hold it together?
Lay it on me people. I’m all ears. This time I really do need your help.
Oh Leah, I totally hear you on the panic, the worry, the self recrimination, the desperation, the all of it! This is a complicated situation for sure, based on your description above. With my therapist hat on, and with what little information I have from you, I want to ask some questions -- is the person a minor? That changes what you would do. A minor needs an adult to take over and get help. Period. That's getting them to a hospital if it's suicidality. But don't get the sense it's a minor given your history with them. If it's an adult who is on the verge of attempting suicide, you can put this crisis squarely into hands of crisis workers, which could mean a phone call to emergency services, crisis centres, etc (you could even make the call to inform yourself about the resources and routes in your area). BUT, I don't know how things go in England on that front. In Toronto, that call to 911 could mean a visit by the police (who have no clue how to handle mental health) and enforced hospitalization (where doctors and psychiatrists are not trauma informed, by and large, and so often the treatment and environment provide a band-aid at best and inflict more emotional damage at worst). But if it's about crisis, then it's about keeping the person alive. And that trumps everything. And if it's not a case of suicidality, then it's as murky as you describe. This person is an adult, even if they are an adult with distortions. So, I don't think there is a right or wrong way here, I think, I THINK, if you are able to tolerate consequences (being yelled at, cut off, etc.) and it's worth it, you can intervene. But know why you are doing it, get clear on the outcomes you are hoping for, and don't do it alone. This person's mental health may not be yours to address, depending on who they are in your life. And I would want to ask you, what's your sense of your role here and why? Sending big love for a terrifying and helpless-making situation. Your close acquaintance from yore, Liz Phillips.
Ah, Liz -- close acquaintance from yore! This so lovely and yes, needless to say I've been knee deep in the "resources." Long story short, it's really hard to get help for someone who doesn't want it. Here in the UK the absolute extreme end is called "sectioning" -- that's where the authorities forcibly commit the person to an institution. Not ideal for anyone involved. On the other hand the Canadian system doesn't seem much better.... x
I can identify with your dilemma but not your panic so since you asked for my experience here is the first point: don't appear to panic even if you are spinning on that mental hamster wheel. I have been in mental distress (depression/anxiety) several times in my life and the most helpful people have been those who listened to me when I was ready to unload. The last thing I wanted was an intervention by well meaning folks. As a father to sons who have had their own psychological challenges I have tried to keep this advice; interjecting when I've seen a door ajar or a window crack. None of this is easy and patience can become as hard to find as change is elusive. Your special bond with this person will give you clues regarding what to say/do; follow what has been, to discover the way forward. Maintaining your credibility is as useful as your aid. Best of luck Ms.McL.
Robert, I'm so glad you posted this because it's fascinating to hear about a similar situation but from the unwell person's point of view. We so rarely do. One of the problems with dealing with a mentally distressed loved one is that it's almost impossible to imagine the world from their point of view -- which in turn saps empathy. Thanks for your self awareness and insight.
you are very welcome Leah, I'm not a person who is shy about revealing personal details, I believe it's an attribute we have in common, I also sense that you have a gift to recognize when you are the right person, at the right place, at the right time- trust that notion and be ready to act when that right time comes- with open heart I wish you peace.
Ahhhhh the age old conundrum. The answer: you don’t. You just get the help you need to watch the unfolding or unraveling without coming apart at the seams yourself.
I’m sorry you’re experiencing this. I’m more sorry for the person going through the hard time. Our brains lie to us all the time, sadly. The only thing in life we can control is our own words and actions. I wish we could convince loved ones to get help. Sometimes interventions work, but in my own experience, prioritizing one’s own peace is the only way.
It's so interesting because this seems to be the resounding view, not just from people on this thread but everyone I speak to... it's obviously right and yes so, so hard to accept. A close girlfriend called me up last night and was like, 'Boundaries Leah, you struggle with BOUNDARIES.' Essentially she was saying the same thing.
I dismantled an entire family life over this and set myself free after 20 years because he just couldn’t take responsibility for his own happiness. It was so painful, especially with two little kids, but six years later I’ve come into my own. He’s happier now too (he has no choice but to care for himself now) but the height I have soared to would not have been possible in that relationship container. Anyway, sending you a big hug.
Always put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others. Get him somehow to a medical professional pack an overnight bag. Look after yourself it’s getting him to hear it from a professional. I asked someone in a similar situation. He refused to go until the doctor said you have a problem. He’s bipolar manic. Nothing you say he will hear. According to her the doctor she said 90% of relationships fail when one person is bipolar. I don’t know your situation but what I do know is you have to first take care of yourself. This is sad to hear and I wish you an outcome that benefits your “stubborn gorgeous …..”
ah Judith, so nice to hear from you. and the oxygen mask... best advice ever and yet so hard to follow in moments of crisis. that must be why the airlines hammer it home so hard!
I love reading your articles thoughts and how you speak directly to your audience. I’m inspired. Keep doing what you do best - outside of caring as much for those you hold dear.
Leah: So sorry to read this - sending you lots of virtual love & strength.. I went through this with both my Dad (bi polar and an alcoholic) and my older sister... my sister had what I guess was a mental health breakdown when she was in the midst of cancer treatment. She had many demons and things to deal with and I just kept telling her that she needed to go ( back) to therapy... she told me that therapy did not work but really it was that she had not found a therapist that worked for HER... Because she depended on me for support and she valued my input I kept on at her to look for a better therapist and she did finally find one at a Mississauga hospital who was wonderful and finally someone who she 'clicked with' and that she could respect and work with. Sadly the cancer took my lovely sister in August 2018, at the age of 53 and 18 months after she was first diagnosed - I miss her everyday. But having that great therapist really helped her with her end of life plans... With my Dad nothing worked. Being bi polar he always thought he knew the answer and that he was smarter than everyone else . Eventually with him I just gave up ..... he became toxic and a danger to my own mental health. I had to put my family (lovely husband and my amazing daughter ) before his needs. He too died of cancer in May 2020. I hope you can find help for your person.. the hardest is when they think nothing is wrong and that the rest of the world is the problem. xox xox
Oh my GOD Victoria you've been through so much. I'm in awe of your strength and ability to reflect... I have no idea how this situation is going to pan out. It could be over and done with by the end of the week or go on for years but I know that if it's a case of the latter at some point I am going to have to give up. For the sake of my children and myself. There's no point in falling through the ice trying to save a person who wants to drown. Bad metaphor but you know what I mean. xxx
Yes definitely.. Really at some point you just have to take stock of what you value in your life : your friends, your husband your children and in my case it was all of those things- well my lovely daughter as I only have the one!!
And I did come to back to my dad before he died and we had some conversations about his mental illness but I was very clear that I wasn’t going to be railroaded or guilted into having any kind of relationship with him or my mother because of how they behaved to my sister. It’s a long and torturous story, and this is why I think I have a memoir in me somewhere! But I’m not sure I have the discipline to actually be a writer. Lol ..
The torturous part of the story is my parents suing my sister‘s estate ( after she died in 2018) for some of her money- basically stealing from their grandsons.. they were not successful..
My sister was a daycare teacher she was a nice saver and she saved a bit of money to leave to her kids.. but we’re talking less than $200,000 here and my parents thought they were entitled to some of that which is mine boggling, destructive and horrible and yet these things do happen in families.
I really hope you can find some strength to either help the person who needs the help, or do the best you can and then move on because your children look lovely and your husband seems wonderful and life is MUCH too short to keep banging your head against a wall trying to help someone who doesn’t want or appreciate your help.  xox
Once my mother's dementia advanced the best was always just to agree with her. However my father's health issues engendered intermittent confusion, sometimes to the point of delerium, and disinhibition. I remember his doctor enouraging me to "reorient." A mot clé for me at the time. Sometimes a small rudder in a big storm, but I was glad of the permission to not only not abandon my reality, but also impose it. When I look back on the more nightmarish times, sometimes I retrospectively crave co-opting others as back up. When my dad was convinced his west coast brother had been in his east coast hospital room overnight, why, why, why didn't I just call my uncle and get him to tell my dad point blank no? Perhaps I decided to spare my elderly uncle the upset because my parents' geriatrician had warned me that "people always trust their own brain." What I can suggest is to reorient this dear person as unstintingly as you feel the need to. Do so in tandem with someone stable and trusted if (I'd say) at all possible; don't burden yourself with any of my kind of regrets there. Please let us know if there is anything else we can do.
I've been thinking a lot about the dementia thing because I've seen so many friends struggle with parents or older loved ones who have it... and the geriatrician is so right that people always trust their own brain, so convincing them no to is sort of hopeless. I suppose they either come round or they don't. dementia is especially hard because there is no 'coming round' just management. but at least there's a certainty in that.
“the police (who have no clue how to handle mental health) and enforced hospitalization (where doctors and psychiatrists are not trauma informed, by and large, and so often the treatment and environment provide a band-aid at best and inflict more emotional damage at worst).”
A person in a crisis is very vulnerable to all sorts of market based dangers - psychiatrists, prescription drugs, bad psychotherapists, law enforcement - as well as interpersonal dangers like “friends” who get off on encouraging people to harm themselves or make bad decisions in a crisis.
A person in a crisis may welcome help if the helper is a wounded healer. This could be a therapist or a stranger or a friend. Wounded people sense wounded healers.
I would stay in touch with the person and keep an eye on who they are interacting with. A mental health crisis is like blood in the water for sadists and psychos.
I met a few wounded healer therapists during the pandemic. One in Los Angeles and two in Ontario.
In the absence of suicidal intentions, or threat to harm others, there’s really very little power we have to get someone to see the light. He or she has choices and autonomy must be honored. We can reach out, encourage, and support, recognizing that it might be in vain. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. Hugs
A. I am really sorry you’re going through this. B. I have found one thing to be true… you can’t tell anyone anything. I know this first-hand because in my younger years, when I was a giant mess—rudderless, directionless, not thinking clearly—there were people who tried to tell me. I didn’t listen.
Even though I managed to clean up my act a bit… setting goals with a daily discipline of working toward them, not drinking 1.5 bottles of wine everyday, meditating, keeping fit, I still have the tendency to take other people’s inventory and solve all their problems in MY head. This is a desire for control and no good comes of it. If they ask, fine. Otherwise… I zip it.
Leading by example is the most powerful tool. Now that meditation helps manage my emotions, people around me are less at the whim of their own emotions. How we feel is the only thing within our control. So everyday, I fight to be happy and at peace. It’s our right to feel that way and it’s also our responsibility.
Jeffrey H - musician and therapist, separately and in combo. A situation such as this tends to bring out a panicky response in us. We feel - I have felt it, too - an anxious need to DO something once we realize the truth of the situation which is: they are not well and their life is the worse for it, and so are the lives of those close to them. A difficult truth to face is that we cannot make another person do anything, just as they cannot make US behave in ways we don't want. If we want them to change more than THEY want to change, we set ourselves up for heartache, frustration, anger, exhaustion and burnout. And still, we are left feeling we must act though it seems fraught with only negative possible results. Another reader has asked the good screening questions: are they a minor and are they suicidal? When the answer is 'no' then we have to start weighing choices and scoring them - 1-5 or 1-10 or however - to rationally assess how much we can do and how much we cannot. And, we should conduct that exercise with others present, anyone close whom we trust, to get as well-rounded an unofficial "assessment" as we can. This can be hard to do dispassionately but we have to try. Pretend for the moment that they are someone whom you know but with whom you share minimal, or no, baggage. Suspending our feelings for and about the person, and with the presence of others who can be counted on to join with you in the objective assessment, will help produce the best results. And, last but crappiest, sometimes there is nothing WE can do that will turn that ship around. We can, though, be supportive and present though we have to be self-vigilant and monitor the toll our efforts are taking on us. "Do as much as you can without hurting yourself" is advice I have offered many times. It doesn't seem to have a down side. All the best to you. J
Leah, I'm so sorry for what you are going through. I have been a witness to a mental health breakdown that did not seem as such to me at the time. This person was eventually briefly hospitalized in order to get the help they needed, and I learned that serious mental health issues (can) look more like "the usual, only more so" rather than an obvious and tragic change in behaviour. I have no advice, but think that Jeffrey has the right idea re: help as much as you can without hurting yourself in the process. I wish you strength, or luck, or whatever may help get you through this difficult period.
My youngest daughter was bipolar and to compound the mood swings and outbursts of scary behavior, she had been lumbered with breast cancer in her thirties. She eventually died of that. At some particularly points she would lose control and cause scary scenes. Then she had to be taken into psychiatric care in hospital. I begged her to take her medicine for the mental problems. But like many bipolar people do) would stop and start. Once I asked her if her doctor was giving her new prescriptions when she had stopped taking her meds for awhile and she had none left. She hinted that her pharmacist would help her out with that. I gathered she had stopped all therapy. She lived quite far away so our one on one contact was spotty. I worried about her. But the more I expressed my concern, the angrier she became. I had to learn to stay out of it. To protect myself. No matter how many ways I tried to help her, she always headed me off at the pass with excuses and often rage and anger and recriminations. Her mind was sending her diverse messages and she also heard voices. So eventually, aside from sending her presents and once or twice visiting, I had to back away. Her madness had begun to chip away at my belief in myself. The old "Where did I go wrong?" question was grinding down my self confidence. I could do nothing else. She didn't want my comfort anymore. She had a great oncologist who loved her and helped her all she could. But the cancer won and my baby daughter died at 49, in the hospital from complications involving a bowel obstruction. Poor baby, she was so messed up and confused and lost in the thicket of her thoughts and failing body that, in the end, she actually asked her husband to tell the doctors to let her go. Leah, Nobody can tell you how to fix your friend's distress. Advice is free and talk is cheap. Probably there is no solution you can engineer or put in motion. If the person does get help, it is likely it will come from someone not so close. Sick people usually don't hear those closest to them. Hope you have been helped by all of out comments. Thanks for being you.
Suzanne, watching a suffering child die young must be a source of unfathomable grief. The sentence in you comment that rings out clear and true as a bell for me is "I could do nothing else."
It's plaintive and honest and so utterly devoid of neurosis or self-pity. There is such quiet strength in it. It's so important, I think, to understand and identify that moment. To be able to look in the mirror and know that whatever the outcome, you did everything you could. There was nothing else. To know this and trust it and to trust yourself. Ultimately it's about self-respect. Thank you. x
Thank you Leah, One must know one's limits. As you say, "without neurosis or self pity". I am 83 years old and, over time, have drawn a few conclusions. Largely, I now know that what happens to us mostly just happens. It's almost egotistical to think that we have anything at all to do with life's accidents. One can whine and/or think "Why me?" but there is no "Why you or me?". It's just life and it's up to us to sort ourselves out in the face of any and all trouble that comes our way. The hardest part is learning when to back off in order to spare ourselves. Unless we do that, there comes a point when our intervention is perceived as meddling. Best to know what to leave the party without causing a fuss.
I sense that you are feeling a little guilty about maybe being harsh with her now that you realize she is mentally fragile. Perhaps reassuring her that you have always valued her disparate input and her friendship and are willing to do anything to restore the relationship as before. This may be hard for you but compromise always has to be generous from one or both sides.
guilty is an understatement. but I have to say it's actually a huge relief to adjust my perspective from one of aggrieved demonising to empathy -- having said that BOUNDARIES (my struggle) x
Recently you reached out again (Dec. 9) with a post asking your public for, "Tell me something, anything, that has nothing to do with anything serious or sad." but that post appears to have been taken down. I'm not a jokester but I do have something that caught me as 'what a coincidence!', which might distract you from your problems for a few seconds at least.
While your world is exploding I've been enjoying your memoir. When it was first published I asked for it to be placed on hold for me at my library. It finally was released to me 3 days ago. I have devoured it. Near the end, when you state that you lived in a house on Yarmouth Gardens my head exploded. My first wife & I rented a second floor suite as newlyweds on the south side of that short street in the mid seventies. Twice! The first rental only had a hot plate and bar fridge. The landlady wanted to adopt my wife, seriously, when that didn't happen she told us to get out, literally. By strange luck another similar house just six doors down was available. This one had a proper kitchen & bonus second floor balcony. On moving day we walked our meager possessions to our new digs. So, your story rekindled memories of my story. Life is so full of mystery it's a wonder I can get anything done. Skol!
I feel for you and your family, and understand, at least on an empathic level, where you’re at.
In these situations, I sometimes wonder if one can ever achieve enough self-awareness to be able to help others in any meaningful way, or, is it always about the work on oneself: the more I understand about myself, my reactions, my struggle, the more I grasp my context, hence I’m able to perceive and put “otherness” in perspective.
In my humble opinion, I think your approach of keeping the boat afloat, especially for the youngens, is the necessary buoy, the lifeline to yourself and to maintaining some level of oversight. Everything is blurrier from underwater, is what I’m trying to say, I guess.
So sorry to hear this and not to have send some warmth and a hug before. Have been in this situation with parents and children and at times I have had to stand back and watch the car crash happen. I am sure I will have to do so again with the kids. Our caring and loving instinct is to get in an help but when that is not wanted, it is painful to watch as a loved one unravels. I always try to remember that XYZ is an adult and it is their life... harder wth a young adult child I have to say. Self care and some healthy but loving detachment and boundaries are so helpful. My sister and I had to intervee with hthe doctor when Mum developed dementia... our whole family tried to help Dad but he drank himself to death... with a daughter she refused help until she was having panic attacks at school... stressful. Dark chocolate and peanut butter ice cream are essential.
I read the comments before adding my own, and the combined wisdom and experience on display Is amazing. I have some experiences also with loved ones and unless there is some sense of imminent self harm or harm to others your strategy is calm discussion and suggestion when the opportunity presents. Respect for the person and strength-based approaches will provide long-term benefits for all. Good luck to you both. It’s. So. Difficult.
Oh Leah, I totally hear you on the panic, the worry, the self recrimination, the desperation, the all of it! This is a complicated situation for sure, based on your description above. With my therapist hat on, and with what little information I have from you, I want to ask some questions -- is the person a minor? That changes what you would do. A minor needs an adult to take over and get help. Period. That's getting them to a hospital if it's suicidality. But don't get the sense it's a minor given your history with them. If it's an adult who is on the verge of attempting suicide, you can put this crisis squarely into hands of crisis workers, which could mean a phone call to emergency services, crisis centres, etc (you could even make the call to inform yourself about the resources and routes in your area). BUT, I don't know how things go in England on that front. In Toronto, that call to 911 could mean a visit by the police (who have no clue how to handle mental health) and enforced hospitalization (where doctors and psychiatrists are not trauma informed, by and large, and so often the treatment and environment provide a band-aid at best and inflict more emotional damage at worst). But if it's about crisis, then it's about keeping the person alive. And that trumps everything. And if it's not a case of suicidality, then it's as murky as you describe. This person is an adult, even if they are an adult with distortions. So, I don't think there is a right or wrong way here, I think, I THINK, if you are able to tolerate consequences (being yelled at, cut off, etc.) and it's worth it, you can intervene. But know why you are doing it, get clear on the outcomes you are hoping for, and don't do it alone. This person's mental health may not be yours to address, depending on who they are in your life. And I would want to ask you, what's your sense of your role here and why? Sending big love for a terrifying and helpless-making situation. Your close acquaintance from yore, Liz Phillips.
Ah, Liz -- close acquaintance from yore! This so lovely and yes, needless to say I've been knee deep in the "resources." Long story short, it's really hard to get help for someone who doesn't want it. Here in the UK the absolute extreme end is called "sectioning" -- that's where the authorities forcibly commit the person to an institution. Not ideal for anyone involved. On the other hand the Canadian system doesn't seem much better.... x
I can identify with your dilemma but not your panic so since you asked for my experience here is the first point: don't appear to panic even if you are spinning on that mental hamster wheel. I have been in mental distress (depression/anxiety) several times in my life and the most helpful people have been those who listened to me when I was ready to unload. The last thing I wanted was an intervention by well meaning folks. As a father to sons who have had their own psychological challenges I have tried to keep this advice; interjecting when I've seen a door ajar or a window crack. None of this is easy and patience can become as hard to find as change is elusive. Your special bond with this person will give you clues regarding what to say/do; follow what has been, to discover the way forward. Maintaining your credibility is as useful as your aid. Best of luck Ms.McL.
Robert, I'm so glad you posted this because it's fascinating to hear about a similar situation but from the unwell person's point of view. We so rarely do. One of the problems with dealing with a mentally distressed loved one is that it's almost impossible to imagine the world from their point of view -- which in turn saps empathy. Thanks for your self awareness and insight.
you are very welcome Leah, I'm not a person who is shy about revealing personal details, I believe it's an attribute we have in common, I also sense that you have a gift to recognize when you are the right person, at the right place, at the right time- trust that notion and be ready to act when that right time comes- with open heart I wish you peace.
Ahhhhh the age old conundrum. The answer: you don’t. You just get the help you need to watch the unfolding or unraveling without coming apart at the seams yourself.
I’m sorry you’re experiencing this. I’m more sorry for the person going through the hard time. Our brains lie to us all the time, sadly. The only thing in life we can control is our own words and actions. I wish we could convince loved ones to get help. Sometimes interventions work, but in my own experience, prioritizing one’s own peace is the only way.
It's so interesting because this seems to be the resounding view, not just from people on this thread but everyone I speak to... it's obviously right and yes so, so hard to accept. A close girlfriend called me up last night and was like, 'Boundaries Leah, you struggle with BOUNDARIES.' Essentially she was saying the same thing.
I dismantled an entire family life over this and set myself free after 20 years because he just couldn’t take responsibility for his own happiness. It was so painful, especially with two little kids, but six years later I’ve come into my own. He’s happier now too (he has no choice but to care for himself now) but the height I have soared to would not have been possible in that relationship container. Anyway, sending you a big hug.
Always put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others. Get him somehow to a medical professional pack an overnight bag. Look after yourself it’s getting him to hear it from a professional. I asked someone in a similar situation. He refused to go until the doctor said you have a problem. He’s bipolar manic. Nothing you say he will hear. According to her the doctor she said 90% of relationships fail when one person is bipolar. I don’t know your situation but what I do know is you have to first take care of yourself. This is sad to hear and I wish you an outcome that benefits your “stubborn gorgeous …..”
ah Judith, so nice to hear from you. and the oxygen mask... best advice ever and yet so hard to follow in moments of crisis. that must be why the airlines hammer it home so hard!
I love reading your articles thoughts and how you speak directly to your audience. I’m inspired. Keep doing what you do best - outside of caring as much for those you hold dear.
Leah: So sorry to read this - sending you lots of virtual love & strength.. I went through this with both my Dad (bi polar and an alcoholic) and my older sister... my sister had what I guess was a mental health breakdown when she was in the midst of cancer treatment. She had many demons and things to deal with and I just kept telling her that she needed to go ( back) to therapy... she told me that therapy did not work but really it was that she had not found a therapist that worked for HER... Because she depended on me for support and she valued my input I kept on at her to look for a better therapist and she did finally find one at a Mississauga hospital who was wonderful and finally someone who she 'clicked with' and that she could respect and work with. Sadly the cancer took my lovely sister in August 2018, at the age of 53 and 18 months after she was first diagnosed - I miss her everyday. But having that great therapist really helped her with her end of life plans... With my Dad nothing worked. Being bi polar he always thought he knew the answer and that he was smarter than everyone else . Eventually with him I just gave up ..... he became toxic and a danger to my own mental health. I had to put my family (lovely husband and my amazing daughter ) before his needs. He too died of cancer in May 2020. I hope you can find help for your person.. the hardest is when they think nothing is wrong and that the rest of the world is the problem. xox xox
Oh my GOD Victoria you've been through so much. I'm in awe of your strength and ability to reflect... I have no idea how this situation is going to pan out. It could be over and done with by the end of the week or go on for years but I know that if it's a case of the latter at some point I am going to have to give up. For the sake of my children and myself. There's no point in falling through the ice trying to save a person who wants to drown. Bad metaphor but you know what I mean. xxx
Yes definitely.. Really at some point you just have to take stock of what you value in your life : your friends, your husband your children and in my case it was all of those things- well my lovely daughter as I only have the one!!
And I did come to back to my dad before he died and we had some conversations about his mental illness but I was very clear that I wasn’t going to be railroaded or guilted into having any kind of relationship with him or my mother because of how they behaved to my sister. It’s a long and torturous story, and this is why I think I have a memoir in me somewhere! But I’m not sure I have the discipline to actually be a writer. Lol ..
The torturous part of the story is my parents suing my sister‘s estate ( after she died in 2018) for some of her money- basically stealing from their grandsons.. they were not successful..
My sister was a daycare teacher she was a nice saver and she saved a bit of money to leave to her kids.. but we’re talking less than $200,000 here and my parents thought they were entitled to some of that which is mine boggling, destructive and horrible and yet these things do happen in families.
I really hope you can find some strength to either help the person who needs the help, or do the best you can and then move on because your children look lovely and your husband seems wonderful and life is MUCH too short to keep banging your head against a wall trying to help someone who doesn’t want or appreciate your help.  xox
Once my mother's dementia advanced the best was always just to agree with her. However my father's health issues engendered intermittent confusion, sometimes to the point of delerium, and disinhibition. I remember his doctor enouraging me to "reorient." A mot clé for me at the time. Sometimes a small rudder in a big storm, but I was glad of the permission to not only not abandon my reality, but also impose it. When I look back on the more nightmarish times, sometimes I retrospectively crave co-opting others as back up. When my dad was convinced his west coast brother had been in his east coast hospital room overnight, why, why, why didn't I just call my uncle and get him to tell my dad point blank no? Perhaps I decided to spare my elderly uncle the upset because my parents' geriatrician had warned me that "people always trust their own brain." What I can suggest is to reorient this dear person as unstintingly as you feel the need to. Do so in tandem with someone stable and trusted if (I'd say) at all possible; don't burden yourself with any of my kind of regrets there. Please let us know if there is anything else we can do.
I've been thinking a lot about the dementia thing because I've seen so many friends struggle with parents or older loved ones who have it... and the geriatrician is so right that people always trust their own brain, so convincing them no to is sort of hopeless. I suppose they either come round or they don't. dementia is especially hard because there is no 'coming round' just management. but at least there's a certainty in that.
What Liz said is true and very important:
“the police (who have no clue how to handle mental health) and enforced hospitalization (where doctors and psychiatrists are not trauma informed, by and large, and so often the treatment and environment provide a band-aid at best and inflict more emotional damage at worst).”
A person in a crisis is very vulnerable to all sorts of market based dangers - psychiatrists, prescription drugs, bad psychotherapists, law enforcement - as well as interpersonal dangers like “friends” who get off on encouraging people to harm themselves or make bad decisions in a crisis.
A person in a crisis may welcome help if the helper is a wounded healer. This could be a therapist or a stranger or a friend. Wounded people sense wounded healers.
I would stay in touch with the person and keep an eye on who they are interacting with. A mental health crisis is like blood in the water for sadists and psychos.
I met a few wounded healer therapists during the pandemic. One in Los Angeles and two in Ontario.
If it helps, I can refer.
Thanks Michael. Christ, wounded healers... now THAT'S a topic for another thread.
In the absence of suicidal intentions, or threat to harm others, there’s really very little power we have to get someone to see the light. He or she has choices and autonomy must be honored. We can reach out, encourage, and support, recognizing that it might be in vain. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. Hugs
When the student is ready the teacher appears.
So much wisdom in this thread. So many epitaphs to steal!
Thank you Donna. x
A. I am really sorry you’re going through this. B. I have found one thing to be true… you can’t tell anyone anything. I know this first-hand because in my younger years, when I was a giant mess—rudderless, directionless, not thinking clearly—there were people who tried to tell me. I didn’t listen.
Even though I managed to clean up my act a bit… setting goals with a daily discipline of working toward them, not drinking 1.5 bottles of wine everyday, meditating, keeping fit, I still have the tendency to take other people’s inventory and solve all their problems in MY head. This is a desire for control and no good comes of it. If they ask, fine. Otherwise… I zip it.
Leading by example is the most powerful tool. Now that meditation helps manage my emotions, people around me are less at the whim of their own emotions. How we feel is the only thing within our control. So everyday, I fight to be happy and at peace. It’s our right to feel that way and it’s also our responsibility.
"You can't tell anyone anything."
Would you mind if I stole that for my epitaph?
It's either that or the title of our unpublished masterpiece, DON'T BE SUCH A PSYCHO.
yeah it WOULD be a great book title!
Jeffrey H - musician and therapist, separately and in combo. A situation such as this tends to bring out a panicky response in us. We feel - I have felt it, too - an anxious need to DO something once we realize the truth of the situation which is: they are not well and their life is the worse for it, and so are the lives of those close to them. A difficult truth to face is that we cannot make another person do anything, just as they cannot make US behave in ways we don't want. If we want them to change more than THEY want to change, we set ourselves up for heartache, frustration, anger, exhaustion and burnout. And still, we are left feeling we must act though it seems fraught with only negative possible results. Another reader has asked the good screening questions: are they a minor and are they suicidal? When the answer is 'no' then we have to start weighing choices and scoring them - 1-5 or 1-10 or however - to rationally assess how much we can do and how much we cannot. And, we should conduct that exercise with others present, anyone close whom we trust, to get as well-rounded an unofficial "assessment" as we can. This can be hard to do dispassionately but we have to try. Pretend for the moment that they are someone whom you know but with whom you share minimal, or no, baggage. Suspending our feelings for and about the person, and with the presence of others who can be counted on to join with you in the objective assessment, will help produce the best results. And, last but crappiest, sometimes there is nothing WE can do that will turn that ship around. We can, though, be supportive and present though we have to be self-vigilant and monitor the toll our efforts are taking on us. "Do as much as you can without hurting yourself" is advice I have offered many times. It doesn't seem to have a down side. All the best to you. J
That is *excellent* advice Jeffrey. The overwhelming unanimity of this thread is really quite astonishing and for me, an enormous comfort.
Leah, I'm so sorry for what you are going through. I have been a witness to a mental health breakdown that did not seem as such to me at the time. This person was eventually briefly hospitalized in order to get the help they needed, and I learned that serious mental health issues (can) look more like "the usual, only more so" rather than an obvious and tragic change in behaviour. I have no advice, but think that Jeffrey has the right idea re: help as much as you can without hurting yourself in the process. I wish you strength, or luck, or whatever may help get you through this difficult period.
My youngest daughter was bipolar and to compound the mood swings and outbursts of scary behavior, she had been lumbered with breast cancer in her thirties. She eventually died of that. At some particularly points she would lose control and cause scary scenes. Then she had to be taken into psychiatric care in hospital. I begged her to take her medicine for the mental problems. But like many bipolar people do) would stop and start. Once I asked her if her doctor was giving her new prescriptions when she had stopped taking her meds for awhile and she had none left. She hinted that her pharmacist would help her out with that. I gathered she had stopped all therapy. She lived quite far away so our one on one contact was spotty. I worried about her. But the more I expressed my concern, the angrier she became. I had to learn to stay out of it. To protect myself. No matter how many ways I tried to help her, she always headed me off at the pass with excuses and often rage and anger and recriminations. Her mind was sending her diverse messages and she also heard voices. So eventually, aside from sending her presents and once or twice visiting, I had to back away. Her madness had begun to chip away at my belief in myself. The old "Where did I go wrong?" question was grinding down my self confidence. I could do nothing else. She didn't want my comfort anymore. She had a great oncologist who loved her and helped her all she could. But the cancer won and my baby daughter died at 49, in the hospital from complications involving a bowel obstruction. Poor baby, she was so messed up and confused and lost in the thicket of her thoughts and failing body that, in the end, she actually asked her husband to tell the doctors to let her go. Leah, Nobody can tell you how to fix your friend's distress. Advice is free and talk is cheap. Probably there is no solution you can engineer or put in motion. If the person does get help, it is likely it will come from someone not so close. Sick people usually don't hear those closest to them. Hope you have been helped by all of out comments. Thanks for being you.
Suzanne, watching a suffering child die young must be a source of unfathomable grief. The sentence in you comment that rings out clear and true as a bell for me is "I could do nothing else."
It's plaintive and honest and so utterly devoid of neurosis or self-pity. There is such quiet strength in it. It's so important, I think, to understand and identify that moment. To be able to look in the mirror and know that whatever the outcome, you did everything you could. There was nothing else. To know this and trust it and to trust yourself. Ultimately it's about self-respect. Thank you. x
Thank you Leah, One must know one's limits. As you say, "without neurosis or self pity". I am 83 years old and, over time, have drawn a few conclusions. Largely, I now know that what happens to us mostly just happens. It's almost egotistical to think that we have anything at all to do with life's accidents. One can whine and/or think "Why me?" but there is no "Why you or me?". It's just life and it's up to us to sort ourselves out in the face of any and all trouble that comes our way. The hardest part is learning when to back off in order to spare ourselves. Unless we do that, there comes a point when our intervention is perceived as meddling. Best to know what to leave the party without causing a fuss.
I sense that you are feeling a little guilty about maybe being harsh with her now that you realize she is mentally fragile. Perhaps reassuring her that you have always valued her disparate input and her friendship and are willing to do anything to restore the relationship as before. This may be hard for you but compromise always has to be generous from one or both sides.
guilty is an understatement. but I have to say it's actually a huge relief to adjust my perspective from one of aggrieved demonising to empathy -- having said that BOUNDARIES (my struggle) x
Leah,
Recently you reached out again (Dec. 9) with a post asking your public for, "Tell me something, anything, that has nothing to do with anything serious or sad." but that post appears to have been taken down. I'm not a jokester but I do have something that caught me as 'what a coincidence!', which might distract you from your problems for a few seconds at least.
While your world is exploding I've been enjoying your memoir. When it was first published I asked for it to be placed on hold for me at my library. It finally was released to me 3 days ago. I have devoured it. Near the end, when you state that you lived in a house on Yarmouth Gardens my head exploded. My first wife & I rented a second floor suite as newlyweds on the south side of that short street in the mid seventies. Twice! The first rental only had a hot plate and bar fridge. The landlady wanted to adopt my wife, seriously, when that didn't happen she told us to get out, literally. By strange luck another similar house just six doors down was available. This one had a proper kitchen & bonus second floor balcony. On moving day we walked our meager possessions to our new digs. So, your story rekindled memories of my story. Life is so full of mystery it's a wonder I can get anything done. Skol!
Hey Leah,
I feel for you and your family, and understand, at least on an empathic level, where you’re at.
In these situations, I sometimes wonder if one can ever achieve enough self-awareness to be able to help others in any meaningful way, or, is it always about the work on oneself: the more I understand about myself, my reactions, my struggle, the more I grasp my context, hence I’m able to perceive and put “otherness” in perspective.
In my humble opinion, I think your approach of keeping the boat afloat, especially for the youngens, is the necessary buoy, the lifeline to yourself and to maintaining some level of oversight. Everything is blurrier from underwater, is what I’m trying to say, I guess.
A big hug.
So sorry to hear this and not to have send some warmth and a hug before. Have been in this situation with parents and children and at times I have had to stand back and watch the car crash happen. I am sure I will have to do so again with the kids. Our caring and loving instinct is to get in an help but when that is not wanted, it is painful to watch as a loved one unravels. I always try to remember that XYZ is an adult and it is their life... harder wth a young adult child I have to say. Self care and some healthy but loving detachment and boundaries are so helpful. My sister and I had to intervee with hthe doctor when Mum developed dementia... our whole family tried to help Dad but he drank himself to death... with a daughter she refused help until she was having panic attacks at school... stressful. Dark chocolate and peanut butter ice cream are essential.
I read the comments before adding my own, and the combined wisdom and experience on display Is amazing. I have some experiences also with loved ones and unless there is some sense of imminent self harm or harm to others your strategy is calm discussion and suggestion when the opportunity presents. Respect for the person and strength-based approaches will provide long-term benefits for all. Good luck to you both. It’s. So. Difficult.